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LLRP berets

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LLRP berets

Postby alan_lockhart » Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:37 am

I have to paint up some special forces, one of which is wearing a beret.

I know black was worn by the Brown Water Navy and green by the paras (according to the song anyway). What colour should I use for LLRPs?
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Re: LLRP berets

Postby jimmi » Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:58 am

when I think of LRRPs in berets ..I think of those ERDL camo berets , plus or minus 'duck hunter' or 'tiger stripe' camo berets.
..but for me, my association is LRRPs in ERDL berets .

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yeah ..Ok ..this guy is a SEAL .. but this the sort of beret I was thinking of.

while we are here ... where did the idea of a camo cotton beret come from .. they were... um...'fashionable' in this era / moment .

I "get" a wool/felt beret as a head-warmer you can roll into a pocket ... completely gold piece of cold-weather barracks uniform.
? but why the use of a cotton 'beret' vs a bush hat/boonie hat for example ?
.. i woulda thought a bush hat would have a much better chance of breaking up the outline of a human head.
whereas a head with a beret looks like .. a head in a beret ...

? where did this come from ? .... do camo cotton berets still exist ? ... was this just a 70's fashion -thing ?

:lol
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Re: LLRP berets

Postby GARRYOWEN » Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:28 am

My reading has all said USSF did not wear berets in the field.

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Re: LLRP berets

Postby thatguy » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:12 am

I believe the SEAL in that picture isn't wearing an actual beret, but a camo helmet cover worn like a beret.
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Re: LLRP berets

Postby Gamesman15 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:38 pm

i have not seen an image of a wool beret worn in the field, only the various camo types,,,,
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Re: LLRP berets

Postby jimmi » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:20 pm

I've had a PM feedback on this, and tried to post yesterday , but things weren't working ...
re; the above SEAL photo... might be , but looks very beret-ish . ... while yes .. i'm pretty sure actual (felt/wool) Green Berets weren't likely ever worn in the field on a tactical op by USSF (...likewise SASR wouldn't wear their 'sandy' on an op ..it's an item of dress uniform ) ... there did seem to be a widespread use of these tailored cotton camo berets which were likely bought from local tailor shops. ...a little bit of looking at special forces group pix seems like everyone wore them or at least had one guy in the group that did ; LRRPs , Marine force Recon , SEALs , SOG , even SASR.
Where my confusion / amusement arose was at ; IIRC the US armed services didn't wear berets at a routine dress item before the 60's .

?? Am I right that the 'Green Beret' as awarded by Kennedy circa 1962-3 was the first "beret' in US military service ??????
I was once told (by an US Airforce guy) that the pre-1960's military didn't encourage 'elitism' within service branches ... so the "Green Beret" was really culturally significant and controversial in it's time .. and (?) encouraged tiers of elitism to evolve within the US services .. especially if you were a career Army officer. (..eg. the US Army quickly split into 'Airborne'-qualified, ...and all the rest)..
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Re: LLRP berets

Postby jimmi » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:25 pm

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Re: LLRP berets

Postby jimmi » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:28 pm

??? ... so did the cotton camo beret exist as a clothing item in pre-1960's /green beret times .... did the pacific raiders or WW2 ETO Rangers (the only other forces prior to this period to wear camo that I know of) also have a (cotton camo) beret as a standard or routine headdress ? ... I see 'fatigue caps' a lot . not berets .

by comparison ..the photos of the first SEALs training 'stateside' pre-deployment has them in duck-hunter camo and fatigue caps ..never berets .
also; the Tibetan Commandos trained at Okinawa in the '60s by the CIA were photographed in duck hunter camo and fatigue caps ..never berets.

..but be Vietnam times and certainly thereafter ..everyone in the US military is wearing berets .

Is it the 'French' thing ? ie;" when in Indochina ...."

??? did the Air Force wear Berets prior to this period ? , ??? NORAD ?

??? so why were berets so immediately fashionable amongst USSF (collectively..LRRPs and USMC Recon here too) in this period ???

? asking the big questions !
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Re: LLRP berets

Postby jimmi » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:49 pm

a small caveat ; USSF members also acted as village diplomats/"facilitators" and had a role to be a visible presence in the camps / areas where they worked .. often (likely most often by the hours) working to improve camp defences or sort out political or logistical problems ...so there are quite a few photos of USSF personnel in the green beret in the field ..often with local dignitaries or performing CAP tasks.. the Green Beret was an important symbol.
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Re: LLRP berets

Postby Mishima » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:59 am

It is my understanding that the green beret came from Royal Marine Commando. I will research this more before I offend someone with incorrect or mis-remembered info.

Nice overview. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_beret

Basically the cadre SF had many airborne, ranger and commando WW2 vets and eventually they picked green - then JFK approved.
http://www.gomidesigns.co.uk
For 15mm Vietnam Riverine models.
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You write "Born to Kill" on your helmet and you wear a peace button. What's that supposed to be, some kind of sick joke?
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Re: LLRP berets

Postby Mishima » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:06 am

It's totally not a "French" thing :coffee
http://www.gomidesigns.co.uk
For 15mm Vietnam Riverine models.
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Re: LLRP berets

Postby alan_lockhart » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:18 am

Many thanks for all the replies. Green it is then.

Any suggestions for a suitable Vallejo paint?
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Re: LLRP berets

Postby jimmi » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:49 am

That's a totally awesome link Tim, thankyou . ! :cheers

so ; YES the US Military did have berets (somewhere) before the 'Green Berets'. I didn't know this was true . :whistle

more ignorance dispelled ! ... only 88kg to go . :lol

Nice connection between US Green Berets and Iranian Commandos ..didn't know that either.
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Re: LLRP berets

Postby alan_lockhart » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:40 pm

My two sources of reference are the Osprey Armies of the Vietnam War. While I appreciate that the plates and text may not necessarily be accurate, I did glean the following.

There is indeed the reference to President Kennedy directing that green berets be worn by special forces. Plate D1 in volume 1 shows a special forces Major wearing a rifle green beret.

Page 9 of volume 2 has a picture of men of the 3rd Recon. Bn, 3rd Marine Div on patrol below the DMZ in 1969, showing 2 wearing berets which are stated as being black.

Page 15 of vol 2 shows an instructor from a LRRP unit wearing a black beret. Plate H1 shows a LRRP wearing an ARVN camouflage beret.
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Re: LLRP berets

Postby jimmi » Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:08 pm

I've got a feeling that the basic/standard ARVN beret was black. A black beret would likely be his headdress as an instructor to an ARVN outfit.

apparently it was a big deal at the time for US personel to wear other armies' (ie ; ARVN) Uniform items ... it was officially sanctioned in this time.
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